Gambas Future or what kind of Gambas we want.

[martin p cristia]

Stepping in this old conversation to point out my take:

-computers nowadays are fast enough to run a VM that's fast enough to
run a normal aplication

-If Benoit says it's complicated, what's left for us ??????????????????

- so instead of trying to port gambas, why not making a installer that
sets everything up for the inexperinced user??? Something like the
SmallTalk approach.

Making a small footprint VM+Linux+Gambas...they're all opensource, we
can get rid of everyhing that Gambas dont need...even more, making a
ligth weight Gambas or tagging components as "portable" and others "not"
Say it's a 500MB installer? C'mon my android phone has "Hello world"
like apps that weight 30MB, half giga is 15m download...even here in the
ass of the world (small town Argentina)

As for porting Gambas, it will be really good. I have the time (but not
the brain) to help anyone that joins the party and has the know-how for
a start.

After long talk with many gambas developpers, after years of joy on

the use

of this language, I want to talk about its future... its persistance.
Benoit for me is a little bit like our Linus. He have done

something for

itself and it's today one of the better tool ever see. (Umm ... ;-))
Now, for me one thing lock down Gambas... why can't it be more known ?
Because it is close to Linux world. Theire is no possibility to use it
natively on other system ... this problem what explicitely exposed

by RMS

in the past in a mail sended to us. Yes in his request he wanted us

to make

the interpreter generate a cil code for interpreter like java/.net or
parrot. Well today we know java isn't a sure way, and we can do

things too

without.
I have a request to Benoit, and i know it's time is precious and

like mine

rare. I want him to concentrate on make it's code portable... separate
specific linux part to allow all our friend that want to help to port
gambas to stars to make theire job.
By doing this, most people can participate on compiler/interpreter

code, by

having Gambas on other system we can have more component

maker/maintainer.

At the end Benoit can take hollidays and come take a Cognac at home

. :-)

I know this is a huge job as he/we need to take the time to mark

all part

of the code that is hard linked on Linux system, and then choose a

way to

separate it to symplify the maintainment
Same thing for the toolkits but it's at a first time not the

subject of

today.
Now we have hands that can help... but it can't be done if the code

is not

structured for.
So for the Undred time ... Benoit ... Please, let us helping you.
To all, the gambas user/dev, this exchange is for you so even if it

take

thouthen of mail, please give us your impress and your ideas, your

support.

Please, don't look at the spelling fault, it will take to many time

to you

;-)

Fabien's right!
i worked on gambas' portability (OS X and *BSD) and i can say
we need a new structure of code to make a good portability
but mainly a proper maintenance.
Gambas is too linked to Linux. I can understand Benoit isn't
interesting to spend time in the developing to port Gambas,
but Benoit MUST review its code.
At the moment, Gambas is not coded to port properly on
others OS.
a lot of routines is too linked to Linux (i say it again).
Add new components and features is great, but it is
preferable to focus time to make it better.
i hope a work will be done in the gambas code to have
a "modular code". Separate X11 in a single code is
better for us, developers who wants to work on
portability of Gambas!
in this manner, each developer can works on a code
for OS X, for Windows and so on ...
X11 for OS X is ugly.
X11 for Windows is ugly.
Use translated X11 routines are ugly.
Benoit, we don't ask you to port Gambas to OS X & Windows,
just to re-structure code of Gambas so that we can works
efficiently!
While this change will not be applied,
i would not be motivated to work on any Gambas port again...

« [hide part of quote
<http://gambas.8142.n7.nabble.com/Gambas-Future-or-what-kind-of-Gambas-we-want-td44034.html#>]
1) The interpreter relies on some kernel features that are not exactly
implemented in the Windows kernel, especially the fork() system call.
The Cygwin emulation layer is too slow.
2) I don't care about Windows. Doing the port is a big job. I started to
did it on Windows XP + Cygwin years ago. It worked, but there was the
fork() system call emulation that was slow.
3) There is X11 code in gb.gtk, gb.qt4 and gb.desktop.
4) For gb.gtk: as GTK+ 2 is deprecated, gb.gtk should be ported to GTK+
3. This implies removing all the X11 specific code.
5) For gb.qt4: the X11 specific code is there to workaround some
problems, but should not exist theoritically.
6) For gb.desktop: the desktop routines relies on the X11 window manager
protocols and freedesktop.org standards. A lot of things cannot be
ported, but some things can.
7) Many components are interfaces to libraries that do not necessarily
exist on other systems. It could be a problem.
I think there is not a lot of thing to do to port the interpreter, the
compiler and the other tools, as I already did that on Windows.
As for the X11 stuff, of course you're right. It must be encapsulated
somewhere so that it can be easily replaced. I already planned to do
that, but never had the time.
At the moment, I'm busy with fixing Gambas packager as soon as possible,
so that a Gambas 3.5.1 could be released.
--
Benoît Minisini

[Carl Nilsson]

The Future and what kind of Gambas do we
want? Well, this is a question general enough
that I can understand it and put in my modest contribution:
I have just started using Gambas. A year ago I
started asking a question or two on this forum
about using it to write for an embedded system on
small aircraft. It is the application I wish to
concentrate my limited time on, not Gambas and
certainly not Linux, both of which I wanted to
use. My questions were pretty naive and simple,
like how to set up and use multiple serial ports
for a processing system. I was previously and
still am using a Windows 2000 lite sytem with
software I have written in VB6, about which I
know enough to get by. I also know enough about
Windows to know it was not ideal. My system is
not commercial (though I thought it might become
one 10 years ago). But I was not going to pay for Windows Embedded.

In the meantime along come boards like the
Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black. Raspberry
Pi has about 2 million boards sold. That's where
the future lies for Gambas - not with computer
experts on desktops, but with people who want to
use cheap systems largely for educational and
hobby projects. People like myself who were
prepared to dig into VB6, but not go with
successive versions of VB.net and Embedded Windows.

Yesterday, working on Gambas 3.5.1 running on
OpenSUSE 13.1 running on VM under Windows 7, I
finally got as far as writing a small program
that actually received data over a serial
port. I was almost there several days ago -
thanks to the Gambas examples and helpful input
from this forum. However, I got held up , as an
ordinary (non-root) user, by not being able to
open the serial port! A trivial matter, you
might think, but I had to dig into Linux to join
the network group that had permission to access
the serial port! For me, Linux is simply there
as the carrier of Gambas and I do not have the
time in which to become a happy chappie forever playing with Linux.

I note there is GambOS. I have not yet looked at
it, but I get the intent. For home automation,
it seems the right idea. I have little doubt
that boards like Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone, and
tablets and smart phones will dominate the
market in future. Right now, Gambas and Linux go
together. But if you want a much greater takeup
of Gambas, you must make the installation and use
of an O/S with Gambas easier and more
transparent. Look at the hardware and users it
is likely needed for. Here's an image, burn it
on an SD card and away you go. Right now I would
love to be able to download a current
installation image for the Raspberry Pi that had
Gambas and Wiring Pi integrated. Similarly for
the Beaglebone Black. So that the user can get
right down to programming his device using a
custom version of Gambas that suits the
hardware. I should not have to purchase a small
library of books on Linux. I would advocate more
effort towards the non-expert user who wants to
use popular and inexpensive hardware.

That's my take.
Carl

Post by martin p cristia
-computers nowadays are fast enough to run a VM that's fast enough to
run a normal aplication
-If Benoit says it's complicated, what's left for us ??????????????????
- so instead of trying to port gambas, why not making a installer that
sets everything up for the inexperinced user??? Something like the
SmallTalk approach.
Making a small footprint VM+Linux+Gambas...they're all opensource, we
can get rid of everyhing that Gambas dont need...even more, making a
ligth weight Gambas or tagging components as "portable" and others "not"
Say it's a 500MB installer? C'mon my android phone has "Hello world"
like apps that weight 30MB, half giga is 15m download...even here in the
ass of the world (small town Argentina)
As for porting Gambas, it will be really good. I have the time (but not
the brain) to help anyone that joins the party and has the know-how for
a start.

After long talk with many gambas developpers, after years of joy on

the use

of this language, I want to talk about its future... its persistance.
Benoit for me is a little bit like our Linus. He have done

something for

itself and it's today one of the better tool ever see. (Umm ... ;-))
Now, for me one thing lock down Gambas... why can't it be more known ?
Because it is close to Linux world. Theire is no possibility to use it
natively on other system ... this problem what explicitely exposed

by RMS

in the past in a mail sended to us. Yes in his request he wanted us

to make

the interpreter generate a cil code for interpreter like java/.net or
parrot. Well today we know java isn't a sure way, and we can do

things too

without.
I have a request to Benoit, and i know it's time is precious and

like mine

rare. I want him to concentrate on make it's code portable... separate
specific linux part to allow all our friend that want to help to port
gambas to stars to make theire job.
By doing this, most people can participate on compiler/interpreter

code, by

having Gambas on other system we can have more component

maker/maintainer.

At the end Benoit can take hollidays and come take a Cognac at home

. :-)

I know this is a huge job as he/we need to take the time to mark

all part

of the code that is hard linked on Linux system, and then choose a

way to

separate it to symplify the maintainment
Same thing for the toolkits but it's at a first time not the

subject of

today.
Now we have hands that can help... but it can't be done if the code

is not

structured for.
So for the Undred time ... Benoit ... Please, let us helping you.
To all, the gambas user/dev, this exchange is for you so even if it

take

thouthen of mail, please give us your impress and your ideas, your

support.

Please, don't look at the spelling fault, it will take to many time

to you

;-)

Fabien's right!
i worked on gambas' portability (OS X and *BSD) and i can say
we need a new structure of code to make a good portability
but mainly a proper maintenance.
Gambas is too linked to Linux. I can understand Benoit isn't
interesting to spend time in the developing to port Gambas,
but Benoit MUST review its code.
At the moment, Gambas is not coded to port properly on
others OS.
a lot of routines is too linked to Linux (i say it again).
Add new components and features is great, but it is
preferable to focus time to make it better.
i hope a work will be done in the gambas code to have
a "modular code". Separate X11 in a single code is
better for us, developers who wants to work on
portability of Gambas!
in this manner, each developer can works on a code
for OS X, for Windows and so on ...
X11 for OS X is ugly.
X11 for Windows is ugly.
Use translated X11 routines are ugly.
Benoit, we don't ask you to port Gambas to OS X & Windows,
just to re-structure code of Gambas so that we can works
efficiently!
While this change will not be applied,
i would not be motivated to work on any Gambas port again...

« [hide part of quote

<http://gambas.8142.n7.nabble.com/Gambas-Future-or-what-kind-of-Gambas-we-want-td44034.html#>]

1) The interpreter relies on some kernel features that are not exactly
implemented in the Windows kernel, especially the fork() system call.
The Cygwin emulation layer is too slow.
2) I don't care about Windows. Doing the port is a big job. I started to
did it on Windows XP + Cygwin years ago. It worked, but there was the
fork() system call emulation that was slow.
3) There is X11 code in gb.gtk, gb.qt4 and gb.desktop.
4) For gb.gtk: as GTK+ 2 is deprecated, gb.gtk should be ported to GTK+
3. This implies removing all the X11 specific code.
5) For gb.qt4: the X11 specific code is there to workaround some
problems, but should not exist theoritically.
6) For gb.desktop: the desktop routines relies on the X11 window manager
protocols and freedesktop.org standards. A lot of things cannot be
ported, but some things can.
7) Many components are interfaces to libraries that do not necessarily
exist on other systems. It could be a problem.
I think there is not a lot of thing to do to port the interpreter, the
compiler and the other tools, as I already did that on Windows.
As for the X11 stuff, of course you're right. It must be encapsulated
somewhere so that it can be easily replaced. I already planned to do
that, but never had the time.
At the moment, I'm busy with fixing Gambas packager as soon as possible,
so that a Gambas 3.5.1 could be released.
--
Benoît Minisini

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Carl S Nilsson
137 Gordons Hill Road
Lindisfarne, Tas.
Australia 7015

[Kevin Fishburne]

Post by martin p cristia
-computers nowadays are fast enough to run a VM that's fast enough to
run a normal aplication
-If Benoit says it's complicated, what's left for us ??????????????????
- so instead of trying to port gambas, why not making a installer that
sets everything up for the inexperinced user??? Something like the
SmallTalk approach.
Making a small footprint VM+Linux+Gambas...they're all opensource, we
can get rid of everyhing that Gambas dont need...even more, making a
ligth weight Gambas or tagging components as "portable" and others "not"
Say it's a 500MB installer? C'mon my android phone has "Hello world"
like apps that weight 30MB, half giga is 15m download...even here in the
ass of the world (small town Argentina)
As for porting Gambas, it will be really good. I have the time (but not
the brain) to help anyone that joins the party and has the know-how for
a start.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm planning on creating my own LiveCD to
allow users to run my game on Windows and OSX. Not a great solution, but
there aren't many options that the average user will stomach.

For your idea I think we'd need to set up a script or small executable
that would:

1. Install VirtualBox.
2. Extract a premade vdi (Virtual Disk Image) containing only what
Gambas needs to run its components (probably a lot).
3. Extract a premade vbox file (VirtualBox Machine Definition) so
VirtualBox knows about the VM and all its settings.
4. Create desktop and menu shortcuts to launch the VM.

I remember Windows had self-extracting executables, like a zip file with
an .exe extension. Perhaps there's an open source program that can
create those on Windows and then run a script afterward? If so that
would take care of everything except creating the Gambas VM.

[Willy Raets]

Post by Kevin Fishburne

Post by martin p cristia
-computers nowadays are fast enough to run a VM that's fast enough to
run a normal aplication
-If Benoit says it's complicated, what's left for us ??????????????????
- so instead of trying to port gambas, why not making a installer that
sets everything up for the inexperinced user??? Something like the
SmallTalk approach.
Making a small footprint VM+Linux+Gambas...they're all opensource, we
can get rid of everyhing that Gambas dont need...even more, making a
ligth weight Gambas or tagging components as "portable" and others "not"
Say it's a 500MB installer? C'mon my android phone has "Hello world"
like apps that weight 30MB, half giga is 15m download...even here in the
ass of the world (small town Argentina)
As for porting Gambas, it will be really good. I have the time (but not
the brain) to help anyone that joins the party and has the know-how for
a start.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm planning on creating my own LiveCD to
allow users to run my game on Windows and OSX. Not a great solution, but
there aren't many options that the average user will stomach.
For your idea I think we'd need to set up a script or small executable
1. Install VirtualBox.
2. Extract a premade vdi (Virtual Disk Image) containing only what
Gambas needs to run its components (probably a lot).
3. Extract a premade vbox file (VirtualBox Machine Definition) so
VirtualBox knows about the VM and all its settings.
4. Create desktop and menu shortcuts to launch the VM.
I remember Windows had self-extracting executables, like a zip file with
an .exe extension. Perhaps there's an open source program that can
create those on Windows and then run a script afterward? If so that
would take care of everything except creating the Gambas VM.

[Carl Nilsson]

Wally:
To return to the RPi and the like:
As I posted on the Raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/ site on 22 Nov 2013 , I
gratefully used an image file loaded into dropbox by "fuller" (see
his post on 11 Aug 2012) for my wheezy-gambas3.img file - i.e. Debian
wheezy with pre-installed Gambas3.2.1. Any attempt to update the
Gambas to 3.5 failed. I did update my Linux, but any attempt to
upgrade also failed. Using the .img file to load the CD card was
easy. Then there was some messing around getting Gordon's Wiring Pi
installed and finally, using a script from "Brian's Life" and info
from Brian Hensley's site, I got the SPI working. I spent a great
deal of time hunting around on the 'net. As you note, I'm stuck with
those versions, but I do have a working image at that level which
should do me for a few years!. You bet I've backed it up and I'm
grateful for the help and assist i received from those sources mentioned.
Burning a new image is so simple even I can do it! The lack is a way
of keeping current with the developments of both Gambas3 and Linux,
not to mention necessary add-ons like Wiring Pi (with SPI) that are
necessary to properly utilise the attributes of the RPi. The same
thing would/will apply if and when I get a BeagleBone Black, which
considerably out-performs the RPi. I know it takes away some of the
important free aspects of Linux and gambas and the other components,
but I do pay for the hardware and I would not hesitate to pay for a
supported OS image which combined at least the Linux, Gambas and
"Wiring Pi" for these boards, so long as the price was commensurate
with the philosophy of the boards themselves i.e. low. You only have
to see how the few dollars cost of the apps for smartphones and
tablets gets multiplied by the take up to see how just a few dollars
for software can even make a lot of money. When you can multiply a
very small cost by a million you get quite a large sum!. That seems
reasonable to me. Otherwise I'm more of a parasite user than
anything else. I'll never be able to usefully contribute to the sort
of software development which occupies most of this mailing
group. I'm not sure if that contradicts the basic licences for
Gambas and Linux, and all, but maybe shareware "donations" would
help the take up of all this marvellous work by dedicated enthusiasts.
Just thoughts, Carl

Post by martin p cristia
-computers nowadays are fast enough to run a VM that's fast enough to
run a normal aplication
-If Benoit says it's complicated, what's left for us ??????????????????
(snip)

If there would be a decent Gambas repository for Debain, I would love to
base GambOS on Debian (instead of Lubuntu), so that a Raspberry Pi
version of GambOS could be made. This would be a pre installed
Debian/Gambas on a SD card. All the ideas are there, but the lack of
some needed experts is missing in the project.
I'm still hoping for a Debian packager who can make a recent Gambas
repository (the Debain ones suck), as all it would take is a ftp
location at gambos.org, to put all the stuff and from there all can be
installed and updated. But I'm no Debian packager.
I still need to buy a Raspberry Pi, to see what is possible there and
figure out how to make the OS on SD card. But again, GambOS needs to
have a repository with Gambas for that as compiling Gambas is no option.
People need to be able to easily update Gambas, not compile every new
version, as that seems to take ages on Raspberry.
At the moment I'm about the only one working on the project.

(snip)

--
Kind regards,
Willy (aka gbWilly)
http://gambasshowcase.org/
http://howtogambas.org
http://gambos.org
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Carl S Nilsson
137 Gordons Hill Road
Lindisfarne, Tas.
Australia 7015

[Carl Nilsson]

Willy:
My apologies - also to Wally. My previous on this subject should
have been addressed to you. It was in the early hours!
I suppose the more basic answer as to getting a greater take up on
this lovely language is that you have to identify and satisfy the
target market. I would guess by far the largest number of potential
- not current - users are those who have come from Windows and
VB6. If they are long-standing users of Linux, then they are
probably conversant with C, etc. and don't particularly need/want a
Basic derivative. There has to be some imperative for them to switch
to Linux. but once that decision is made, their troubles begin! It's
all in the installation, maintenance and use of Linux and added
components that a novice gets bogged down, not in Gambas
itself. Well, all that can be done there is to offer a packaged
installation that's as simple as possible to support and
maintain. After all, the user had some reason to switch to Linux, so
has to expect some learning process, just as with Windows.
Most smartphone users do not know much about Android - he/she just
immediately starts to use it and learns that way. I can't see Linux
ever becoming that simple - it's a different ball game - but there's
no doubt that the present process of getting Gambas up and running on
a popular board like RPi and using all the latter's attributes is
just too cumbersome and time consuming. If I hadn't been retired, I
would not have stuck to it so far. Gambas is not the end in itself -
you have to look at the end product and make Gambas a part of the
package the user is wanting to use. I'll get off the air now!
Carl

[Jussi Lahtinen]

I would guess by far the largest number of potential

Post by Carl Nilsson
- not current - users are those who have come from Windows and
VB6. If they are long-standing users of Linux, then they are
probably conversant with C, etc. and don't particularly need/want a
Basic derivative.

I strongly disagree here. C is not for same purposes than basic languages.
C is good for system programming and things that require fast execution
speed. Gambas is better for just about everything else.

Post by Carl Nilsson
There has to be some imperative for them to switch
to Linux. but once that decision is made, their troubles begin!

Well my troubles only decreased.


Jussi

[Tobias Boege]

Post by Carl Nilsson
I would guess by far the largest number of potential

Post by Carl Nilsson
- not current - users are those who have come from Windows and
VB6. If they are long-standing users of Linux, then they are
probably conversant with C, etc. and don't particularly need/want a
Basic derivative.

I strongly disagree here. C is not for same purposes than basic languages.
C is good for system programming and things that require fast execution
speed. Gambas is better for just about everything else.

Post by Carl Nilsson
There has to be some imperative for them to switch
to Linux. but once that decision is made, their troubles begin!

Well my troubles only decreased.

Well said!

I'm personally mostly using C for every day programming (because I like to
exploit my machine's characteristics and mix in assembly here and there).
My "every day programming" may not be everyone's "every day programming",
anyway.

But there is a time and place for every language and I tend to believe that
an experienced programmer knows this and isn't biased towards a language
just because it doesn't look as powerful in some areas as the language he is
accustomed to.

For me GUI applications are definitely Gambas' domain. This includes all the
front-end applications for command-line programs and all programs that must
control other programs (even without GUI). Also I wouldn't use anything but
Gambas for painting or database-related stuff (of the languages, I know of).
This is just what I observed, scrolling through my recently opened projects
in the IDE.

E.g., for the paper I'm currently writing (about connecting random points in
a circle and an upper bound for the length of the resulting path when using
a special algorithm), the graphics are from a Gambas program, less than 100
LOC - and they're good! I can't think of any other language where this task
is as easy as in Gambas (at least with the visual effects I wanted to have
in the graphics).

The same program gave me counterexamples for weaker bounds and tested my
hypothesis 150 million times within two hours. Of course, my yet-to-write
assembly test program will be much faster (especially if I get access to
some hardware RNG) but no chance to give me those fancy graphics!

But if it's about some "target market" (jeez!), we shouldn't forget people
like me (how self-absorbed am I today again?): Gambas was my very first
programming language. I got to know it from school, taught it myself,
though, as it wasn't on the curriculum and my brain was fresh enough back
then. What I want to say is: there are lots of schools and I know of some
teaching Gambas - and there is no reason why their number should decrease.

It's not that we should concentrate on VB6 veterans (and maybe make Gambas
more VB6). There are also seasoned Linux users who will appreciate Gambas
and there are youngsters whose first language Gambas may be. All the old VB6
users _I_ have met (shortly after their switch to Linux and Gambas,
admittedly!) were really confused about the distributions' way of package
management, Gambas components, etc. and more complained about the whole
situation. I can't remember having heard from them again...

No doubt, migrating windows users (VB6 or not) are potential Gambas users
and their number may be greater than the ones I was talking about but let's
don't concentrate on any particular group and let Gambas evolve naturally. I
don't like the notion of a "target market" anyway.

My two cents... spread over still too many paragraphs, sorry...

Regards,
Tobi

[Carl Nilsson]

Tobias:
Thank you for reply. I think maybe you misunderstood a couple of
points I was trying to make.
I was not criticizing any language, particularly not Gambas. Nor was
inferring that Linux is not a great set of op. systems, one or many
of which would be of long-term advantage to a user. Switching to
Linux does however pose a early barrier that must be surmounted
before many people become comfortable with it. I have been
programming off and on for nearly 55 years, but only as a scientific
user and not a professional. I met Unix in the 1970's, but did not
continue to use it. To put VB6 onto Windows XP, I insert the CD,
click a few times, put in my keycode and it is done. Heaps and heaps
of online help, both from MS and the net. The installation process
for Gambas into Linux, plus other components gets better with time,
but is still challenging for many, including those with significant
past programming experience.

You said it yourself: "There are also seasoned Linux users who will
appreciate Gambas
and there are youngsters whose first language Gambas may be. All the old VB6
users _I_ have met (shortly after their switch to Linux and Gambas,
admittedly!) were really confused about the distributions' way of package
management, Gambas components, etc. and more complained about the whole
situation. I can't remember having heard from them again.".

That's my main point. The original question was about how to ensure
the future of gambas. Maybe that's already been done by it's
intrinsic quality. However, to increase the takeup and use - and
hence continued development long into the future - you have to pay
attention to potential users and meet their requirements for
installation and maintenance. A bit more attention to nearly two
million users of a board like the RPi would not go amiss. The
BeagleBone Black creates another opportunity. Why Python and not Gambas?
Carl

Post by martin p cristia
(snip)

[Tom]

I have to agree 100% with Carl!

I too have experience programming GUI's for about 15 years with VB6. I have a
very small amount of Linux experience.
The reason I am reading this list is that I did not like .Net and wanted to find
an alternative to VB6. I found Gambas and it looked good. I managed to get
(after a week of trying) a version of Linux running and got Gambas running on
it. All I wanted to do was create some sample user screens to show someone my
concepts. That was at least 6 months ago. The whole Linux experience was more
than I had time for or wanted to suffer through. The first graphical drag/drop
thing I tried to do wouldn't work with Gambas, however was not too difficult
with VB6.

I don't know how to compile a new version/release of Gambas when bug fixes come
out. Its far to complicated for me. If I had a few months of spare time,
maybe. So I gave up, found my old copy of VB6 and was running in about an hour.
I don't feel I can use VB6 for anything for a customer these days, so I am still
looking for something like VB6 that I can use without needing to learn a new
operating system to use it.

[Jussi Lahtinen]

I know a lot of people will say "its not that hard" or "I did it in only
four
hours" but you are already knowledgeable in Linux.

No one has born with skills to use Windows or Linux. But installing Windows
or Ubuntu is almost exactly the same. I didn't notice any significant
difference. Then you go to Ubuntu Software Center and write "gambas" and
click on "install". With modern system this should be done in *much* less
than two hours (depending on Internet connection and amount of updates).
That was my first experience with Linux and Gambas.

I understand if you expect everything work like in Windows, you really have
troubles. You cannot find InstallGambas.exe anywhere and Gambas is not VB6
clone even though it's similar enough to easily convert your projects. But
instead of guessing what were the troubles, please tell us, it's only way
to improve things.

Jussi

[Carl Nilsson]

Jussi said: "But instead of guessing what were the troubles, please
tell us, it's only way
to improve things."
That's a fair question.

Some time ago I had actually bought a set of DVD's with
openSUSE12.2, after unsuccessfully trying to intall Lubuntu and
Ubuntu on an older computer. (I'll try again some time). However,
openSUSE 12.2 installed no problems. Then I looked for a repository
for gambas3 and once again, munix9:gambas/openSUSE_12.2 came to the
fore. However, gambas3 would not install its examples because of
missing dependencies like imlib2, libogg and v4l-tools: I seached
the net, obtaining many pieces of advice on installing these. (Yes,
the process is now consuming heaps of time and energy). I started to
become familiar with "zypper". I tried
http://sourceforge.net/projects/enlightenment/. I'll say I neded
enlightenment! By the time I got to "sed -i
"DGifOpen/s:fd:&,NULL:"src/modules/loaders/loader_gif.c &.configure
--prefix=/usr --disable-static && make" and similar instructions the
cat (the one with four legs, not the Linux command) had the good
sense to leave the house! This went on for some days - days, not
hours! Looking now at my notes (and ignoring the expletives) I
found that imlib2 needed libmlib2.so.1 etc etc. Finally, I hit the
"search" facility at
software.opensuse.org/search?.g=lib&baseproject=openSUSE% and
installed the missing components. Yes, it's a learning experience
in Linux as it actually is, but no, it's not what I need when I
really want to get on with using Gambas.

If you try to install Gambas 3.5 on the Raspberry Pi running it's
version of Debian Wheezy, the CPU goes into overdrive and stays
there. That's what happens in the real world of newbies to Linux and
Gambas. No wonder Tobias "never hears from them again"!
Carl

[Carl Nilsson]

Now I'm having trouble with the mailing list!
Here's my response to a fair question.

Some time ago I had actually bought a set of DVD's with
openSUSE12.2, after unsuccessfully trying to intall Lubuntu and
Ubuntu on an older computer. (I'll try again some time). However,
openSUSE 12.2 installed no problems. Then I looked for a repository
for gambas3 and once again, munix9:gambas/openSUSE_12.2 came to the
fore. However, gambas3 would not install its examples because of
missing dependencies like imlib2, libogg and v4l-tools: I seached
the net, obtaining many pieces of advice on installing these. (Yes,
the process is now consuming heaps of time and energy). I started to
become familiar with "zypper". I tried
http://sourceforge.net/projects/enlightenment/. I'll say I neded
enlightenment! By the time I got to "sed -i
"DGifOpen/s:fd:&,NULL:"src/modules/loaders/loader_gif.c &.configure
--prefix=/usr --disable-static && make" and similar instructions the
cat (the one with four legs, not the Linux command) had the good
sense to leave the house! This went on for some days - days, not
hours! Looking now at my notes (and ignoring the expletives) I
found that imlib2 needed libmlib2.so.1 etc etc. Finally, I hit the
"search" facility at
software.opensuse.org/search?.g=lib&baseproject=openSUSE% and
installed the missing components. Yes, it's a learning experience
in Linux as it actually is, but no, it's not what I need when I
really want to get on with using Gambas.

If you try to install Gambas 3.5 on the Raspberry Pi running it's
version of Debian Wheezy, the CPU goes into overdrive and stays
there. That's what happens in the real world of newbies to Linux and
Gambas. No wonder Tobias "never hears from them again"!
Carl

But
instead of guessing what were the troubles, please tell us, it's only way
to improve things.
Jussi
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Carl S Nilsson
137 Gordons Hill Road
Lindisfarne, Tas.
Australia 7015

[ISS Boss]

Hi, Tom. I have to take a small issue with your last few sentences. I an
definitely NOT knowledgeable in LINUX (Ubuntu) and definitely cannot compile
all the new changes in Gambas as they come hot off the press, but I did
manage to install Ubuntu in under an hour and create my first 'hello world'
program. I did this barely two months after installing Ubuntu (x64) on my
second development computer.
I, too, come from an extensive background in hardware & programming having
started in 1962 for 20 years in the US Navy (that's over 50 years now) and
state that creating programs in any language is simply a matter of becoming
familiar with it. Gambas has the advantage (for me, anyway) of being very
VB6-like. I have now (after six months or so) taken several of my in-house
utilities and converted them into Gambas utilities. One of the things I
would very much like to see is the direct importing of a MS .MDB file int
something Gambas can use. If that already exists, then I would welcome
someone pointing me in that direction. I have an extensive (some 3800
records) database containing my DVD/Vinyl/VHS/Cassette music & movie library
and really don't want to recreate it in Gambas.
I don't profess to know what happens (much) under the hood of LINUX, but as
I go along, I am learning. I keep a pen/pencil notebook near my development
computer that I use to keep track of things I learn about the OS and how to
manipulate it. At the end of the week, I transcribe them into a searchable
PDF file I created to hold all these goodies. You might try something like
that.
In time, I suspect that you will get the hang of Gambas and move more and
more of your work over onto that platform. Yes, it does take time. My
'hello world' program took three days to complete. As I gain confidence
(and skill) sections of code go much faster. As for migrating VB6 into
Gambas I simply take a subroutine/function and drop it into Gambas and work
on the errors it produces. Most of them are simple to fix. One big help is
opening the .FRM file in a text editor and using the values to re-create the
form in Gambas is relatively easy. Sometimes, you can do it in a matter of
an hour or so depending on how complicated the form actually is.
As I gain experience in Gambas, I keep finding new ways to do things that
are actually shorter and easier to do in Gambas than VB6. Who knew?
Bill

Tom wrote, On 01/23/2014 09:46:

I have to agree 100% with Carl!

I too have experience programming GUI's for about 15 years with VB6. I have a
very small amount of Linux experience.
The reason I am reading this list is that I did not like .Net and wanted to fin
d
an alternative to VB6. I found Gambas and it looked good. I managed to get
(after a week of trying) a version of Linux running and got Gambas running on
it. All I wanted to do was create some sample user screens to show someone my
concepts. That was at least 6 months ago. The whole Linux experience was more
than I had time for or wanted to suffer through. The first graphical drag/drop

thing I tried to do wouldn't work with Gambas, however was not too difficult
with VB6.

I don't know how to compile a new version/release of Gambas when bug fixes come

out. Its far to complicated for me. If I had a few months of spare time,
maybe. So I gave up, found my old copy of VB6 and was running in about an hour
.
I don't feel I can use VB6 for anything for a customer these days, so I am stil
l
looking for something like VB6 that I can use without needing to learn a new
operating system to use it.

[Rolf-Werner Eilert]

If that's your only point, Carl

Post by Carl Nilsson
continue to use it. To put VB6 onto Windows XP, I insert the CD,
click a few times, put in my keycode and it is done. Heaps and heaps
of online help, both from MS and the net. The installation process
for Gambas into Linux, plus other components gets better with time,
but is still challenging for many, including those with significant
past programming experience.

I 100 % agree.

There are some more really good projects around in the Linux world, and
usually they take care to have their main releases put into the major
distros regularly - and in a way that lets them integrate flawlessly.

We cannot compare Windows with Linux here, however, as Windows is a
(relatively) homogenous environment whilst Linux PCs can differ in many
more ways. Package management is way more complex here.

Rolf

[Rolf-Werner Eilert]

Post by Tobias Boege
No doubt, migrating windows users (VB6 or not) are potential Gambas users
and their number may be greater than the ones I was talking about but let's
don't concentrate on any particular group and let Gambas evolve naturally. I
don't like the notion of a "target market" anyway.

Target markets are things we were fed up with when we came to Linux. Let
us avoid making the same mistakes as the big players on consumer markets.

Rolf

[nando]

I cannot thank Benoit(et al) enough for Gambas.
I am very, very, happy with it.
I started with 1.0.4. Did a huge major corporate/mobile thing with 1.0.17/18
and working with 2 and 3 now on other items.
As an old-timer, I can write an old-style program or do super OO with it.
I cannot say enough.
Thank you
-Nando



---------- Original Message -----------
From: Jussi Lahtinen <***@gmail.com>
To: mailing list for gambas users <gambas-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:31:56 +0200
Subject: Re: [Gambas-user] Gambas Future or what kind of Gambas we want.

Post by Carl Nilsson
I would guess by far the largest number of potential

Post by Carl Nilsson
- not current - users are those who have come from Windows and
VB6. If they are long-standing users of Linux, then they are
probably conversant with C, etc. and don't particularly need/want a
Basic derivative.

I strongly disagree here. C is not for same purposes than basic languages.
C is good for system programming and things that require fast execution
speed. Gambas is better for just about everything else.

Post by Carl Nilsson
There has to be some imperative for them to switch
to Linux. but once that decision is made, their troubles begin!

Well my troubles only decreased.
Jussi
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------- End of Original Message -------

[Carl Nilsson]

Let's try this!
Jussi said: "But instead of guessing what were the troubles, please
tell us, it's only way
to improve things."
That's a fair question.
Some time ago I had actually bought a set of DVD's with openSUSE12.2,
after unsuccessfully trying to intall Lubuntu and Ubuntu on an older
computer. (I'll try again some time). However, openSUSE 12.2
installed no problems. Then I looked for a repository for gambas3
and once again, munix9:gambas/openSUSE_12.2 came to the
fore. However, gambas3 would not install its examples because of
missing dependencies like imlib2, libogg and v4l-tools: I seached the
net, obtaining many pieces of advice on installing these. (Yes, the
process is now consuming heaps of time and energy). I started to
become familiar with "zypper". I tried
http://sourceforge.net/projects/enlightenment/. I'll say I neded
enlightenment! By the time I got to "sed -i
"DGifOpen/s:fd:&,NULL:"src/modules/loaders/loader_gif.c &.configure
--prefix=/usr --disable-static && make" and similar instructions the
cat (the one with four legs, not the Linux command) had the good
sense to leave the house! This went on for some days - days, not
hours! Looking now at my notes (and ignoring the expletives) I found
that imlib2 needed libmlib2.so.1 etc etc. Finally, I hit the
"search" facility at
software.opensuse.org/search?.g=lib&baseproject=openSUSE% and
installed the missing components. Yes, it's a learning experience in
Linux as it actually is, but no, it's not what I need when I really
want to get on with using Gambas.
If you try to install Gambas 3.5 on the Raspberry Pi running it's
version of Debian Wheezy, the CPU goes into overdrive and stays
there. That's what happens in the real world of newbies to Linux and
Gambas. No wonder Tobias "never hears from them again"!
Carl

[Jussi Lahtinen]

I see your all three replies..?


Some time ago I had actually bought a set of DVD's with openSUSE12.2,
Bought? It's free!

... after unsuccessfully trying to intall Lubuntu and Ubuntu on an older
computer.

Off topic for this list, but I'm curious what went wrong?

However, gambas3 would not install its examples because of
missing dependencies like imlib2, libogg and v4l-tools: I seached the
net, obtaining many pieces of advice on installing these.

All dependencies should be installed automatically... there were something
wrong in how Gambas was packaged.
I guess this is under work, if not fixed already.

I tried
http://sourceforge.net/projects/enlightenment/. I'll say I neded
enlightenment!

By the time I got to "sed -i

"DGifOpen/s:fd:&,NULL:"src/modules/loaders/loader_gif.c &.configure
--prefix=/usr --disable-static && make" and similar instructions the
cat (the one with four legs, not the Linux command) had the good
sense to leave the house!

Nothing to do with Gambas and so completely unnecessary. Those commands
seems to be for compiling "enlightenment",
not just for installing it. Not newbie stuff at all.

If you try to install Gambas 3.5 on the Raspberry Pi running it's
version of Debian Wheezy, the CPU goes into overdrive and stays
there.

Without details hard to say what happened. Compiling any C program is quite
CPU intensive and RPi isn't very fast.
So maybe it only took very *very* long.

That's what happens in the real world of newbies to Linux and Gambas.

Sounds like I can't recommend openSUSE to newbies.


Jussi

[Carl Nilsson]

Jussi:
Re Ubuntu: I don't know what went wrong - maybe it was my hardware -
I'll try again sometime.
Re the munix9 repository: Yes, I think the packaging was at fault. I
saw a reference to that somewhere.
There was a useful guide to installation on
http://gambasdoc.org/help/install?en&view&v3, but it's a bit out of
date now. I did use it to install an earlier Gambas (3.2.1, I think)
on SUSE10 - on the above hardware.
Re the RPi and Wheezy: Not quite as you think: Gambas 3.5 appears to
install OK and finishes. It is when you try to use Gambas 3.5 that
the CPU usage goes to 100% and stays there. Other potential users
found the same thing. The only thing that got me a nearly up-to-date
Gambas on the RPi was the image with Gambas 3.2.1 installed that I
got from a private download. See previous post.
Re openSUSE and Gambas. To dissuade potential users from using
openSUSE would be wrong, IMO. Gambas 3.5.1 installs without any
problems on openSUSE 13.1 and Gambas works very well - once I had the
permissions under control! I find the latter OS with KDE a very nice distro.

To be constructive, here is my take:
1. There needs to be an up to date list of distros and
repositories, together with some installation instructions, that work
with recent versions of Gambas - what distros and repositories that
gambas will both install and work under. Just like the list referred
to above at gambasdoc.org, but kept up to date. (Maybe there is one,
but I have missed it?) The usual process is to first choose a Linux,
then try to install Gambas. One needs to be able to choose a
combination that installs sweetly. Like OpenSUSE 13.1 and gambas 3.5.1.

2. When you have boards that come out with potentially a huge
take-up, like the RPi, someone or some group (like Willy Raets has
proposed) needs to be able to get out an img file (or something
similar) that has a current Linux distro (or several alternatives)
with Gambas and other components (drivers) pre-installed. There's
an opening right now with the BeagleBone Black board. By all means
charge a modest price for the file, to cover the cost of producing
it. These boards attract newbies, because they open up fresh
computing opportunities.

I have used up more than enough space.
Carl

[martin p cristia]

(too many to quote!)

I'm one of those experienced VB6 users that used to swim in the Caribe,
and Microsoft sent to the Marianas abiss with .NET ; so I think there is
a huge amount of potential ex VB6 programmers to join the Gambas force.

So Gambas is not THAT easy to install or compile? Well, we're
programmers, lets show some effort...

Linux hard to install? Ubuntu sets a computer up in 20m, and if its a
decent one, the only thing you need to know is your time zone. Otherwise
it is all answered in Askubuntu.

Our goal has to be making Gambas compiled program END users, use
whatever O.S. they want, using a one-file-downloadable-installer.

[Rob Kudla]

Post by martin p cristia
So Gambas is not THAT easy to install or compile? Well, we're
programmers, lets show some effort... Linux hard to install? Ubuntu
sets a computer up in 20m, and if its a

If they're running Ubuntu, it's just a matter of a few clicks to install
Gambas through the software center. If they're trying to compile the whole
thing from source and are having difficulty, they probably don't need to be
compiling from source anyway. Just because you CAN do something under Linux
that you can't do under Windows doesn't mean that you have to do it.

Packages made with Gambas should automatically have the right dependencies
and the required packages should be pulled in during installation.

I just don't see this as a big issue. Ubuntu, Debian, Suse and Fedora all
include Gambas as part of their package management systems. Those four and
their derivatives cover easily 90% of all desktop Linux users. Yes, there
will be issues with architectures not typical of desktop computers, like
MIPS or ARM. Those aren't officially supported, and it's up to users with
those platforms to get Gambas working on them if the packages automatically
generated by Debian (etc.) don't work.

If you really think Windows development tools are better in that regard,
try getting VB6 running on PowerPC, which was officially supported by
Windows during VB6's lifetime. It never happened. If you google "visual
basic" "powerpc", the fourth hit is actually a Gambas package which runs on
PPC. Today you can make VB.NET apps that run on Windows RT (ARM
architecture) if for some reason you actually wanted to, but I'm also
guessing that never happens with most VB.NET apps because no one really
cares about Windows on ARM except Microsoft.

And even that's a huge step up from the previous second-class Windows port,
WinCE for ARM and MIPS, used up until about a year or two ago on $99
laptops that were punishing to use. I've heard you could write your VB apps
in a certain way and cross-compile them to run under WinCE, but I've never
seen an app built that way.

Gambas programs, on the other hand, will work on any flavor of Linux once
the Gambas interpreter is fully ported. They aren't officially supported,
and on many platforms where the Linux kernel is supported, Gambas will
never work because they're embedded devices without X or (in the case of
Android) even glibc. But the wonder of free software is that anyone can
take the source and make the port if they put enough effort into it. You
can't do that with most Microsoft tools.

Post by martin p cristia
decent one, the only thing you need to know is your time zone.
Otherwise it is all answered in Askubuntu.

Unfortunately, with laptops (which are most of the PCs sold today), that
isn't always the case. For example, my new Lenovo Ideapad has function keys
that don't even generate keycodes unless you press the Fn button with them;
on their own they do things like adjust volume and brightness. And there's
no SysRq key so no magic key combinations, no NumLock key so there's no
mouse accessibility for when its touchpad goes haywire which is about a
dozen times a day, and the ATI graphic driver has a memory leak resulting
in the X server swapping constantly after about a day, and trying to revert
to the free driver causes the updater to crash in 13.10, and not a single
one of these issues has a solution on AskUbuntu, though several have been
asked and left unanswered. (Don't buy a Lenovo Ideapad.)

Of course, in my Windows days there were many, many issues that couldn't be
solved in online forums, since you had the source to almost nothing and bug
fixes were driven by PR, not technical merit or even, in those days, security.

[Carl Nilsson]

Rob:
...and so maybe a million new users get introduced to Python -
already loaded in the Wheezy RPi distro, not Gambas. If you want to
secure the long term future of Gambas, one of things that must be
done is to attract new users. These new users, like me, are just the
ones that don't have the necessary skills or experience to install
and update Gambas on these platforms. These architectures are a wave
of the future.
Carl

Post by Rob Kudla
Yes, there
will be issues with architectures not typical of desktop computers, like
MIPS or ARM. Those aren't officially supported, and it's up to users with
those platforms to get Gambas working on them if the packages automatically
generated by Debian (etc.) don't work.

[Rob Kudla]

Rob: ...and so maybe a million new users get introduced to Python -
already loaded in the Wheezy RPi distro, not Gambas. If you want to
secure the long term future of Gambas, one of things that must be done
is to attract new users. These new users, like me, are just the ones
that don't have the necessary skills or experience to install and update
Gambas on these platforms. These architectures are a wave of the
future.

First of all, as someone who abandoned Gambas app development in favor of
what we now call HTML5 years ago, you're appealing to the wrong guy with
that argument. Python is a capable enough language, though I personally
dislike it due to its retarded indentation requirements (if meta-Q destroys
my program logic, your language has a problem, not me). Bottom line, I
don't have a horse in this race anymore; I'm actually waiting for Benoît to
let me know when to send him the transfer codes for the gambasdoc.org
domain that I've been hosting for the last 9 years since that server is
likely to disappear soon. Desktop apps just haven't been a priority to me
for a long time.

Second, I would argue that the Raspberry Pi isn't "the future", cheap
Chinese Android devices are. Gambas being ported to Android isn't going
to happen anytime soon as despite having a Linux kernel, Android doesn't
even have the most basic GNU libraries (or a replacement for those) that it
would need to be POSIX compliant. Education might be moving toward ARM for
desktops, at least in CS/CSE programs where kids are meant to be hacking,
but the business world isn't, and that's where most of us are coming from.
Most of us have ARM phones and x86/x64 desktops. I have a couple cheap
Chinese Android sticks hooked up to TVs too. I had hopes to use them as
desktop replacements but in their current state (early 2013 vintage)
they're really not. I could put Debian on them but they wouldn't even have
2D video acceleration and I might not be able to get back. (I write my
Android apps in Java, for the most part. What a terrible, verbose,
top-heavy language, but if you use anything else you're stuck with a subset
of the platform's capabilities and good luck finding support.)

As a corollary, even if Gambas is available on those systems, as you say,
Python is installed by default and the Raspberry Pi project pushes it
pretty hard. Students sitting in front of RPis are going to get taught
Python unless their teacher is someone like me who strongly dislikes
Python, and I suspect Gambas isn't going to be the next thing on their
list.

Third, you can't install or update Gambas on a platform on which it doesn't
compile and run, and if you're one of "the ones that don't have the
necessary skills or experience to install and update Gambas on these
platforms", I would hope you'll shell out the 50 bucks to send your pet
hardware platform to someone who volunteers to make it work, or to Benoît
if it's a bigger job than patching out some Intel-architecture-specific stuff.

It isn't like there's a big red "Port to ARM" button that we've all refused
to push out of spite. The developers need the hardware and the time to
figure out what doesn't work and why. Apparently it compiles, because the
packages are available. I don't think any of us had heard it was broken at
runtime until someone reported it earlier in this thread. The bug has still
not been officially reported on http://code.google.com/p/gambas/issues/list
. Developers can't fix what they don't know about, especially if they don't
even own the hardware it fails on.

Isn't there a Raspbian support group or something that has people who know
how to read gcc error messages?

Rob

[Carl Nilsson]

G'day Rob:
I concede to your greater knowledge and experience. Just a couple
of points in response:
Firstly, I chose my words "a wave of the future" carefully. I did
not say "the wave ..." Hopefully the future holds many good waves.
Secondly, I was simply following the thread, which may or may not be
correct, that securing the long term future for Gambas requires a
continuing or even periodic intake of new users. RPi's are not just
used for education, although that was their prime intent, they are
also useful for embedded systems and, in particular, hobbyists. That
segment is still quite large. I guess I fit in that category - a
cheapskate with time and no great programming skills! My particular
point was that it seemed a missed opportunity to me that boards like
RPi , Beaglebone and the coming Intel board did not better support
Gambas and that it was up to the Gambas community to take up those
and similar opportunities to ensure a Gambas future. Certainly
Gambas 3.2.1 compiles and runs on the RPi.
Carl

Post by Rob Kudla
Second, I would argue that the Raspberry Pi isn't "the future", cheap
Chinese Android devices are. Gambas being ported to Android isn't going
to happen anytime soon as despite having a Linux kernel, Android doesn't
even have the most basic GNU libraries (or a replacement for those) that it
would need to be POSIX compliant. Education might be moving toward ARM for
desktops, at least in CS/CSE programs where kids are meant to be hacking,
but the business world isn't, and that's where most of us are coming from.

...(snip)

Post by Rob Kudla
As a corollary, even if Gambas is available on those systems, as you say,
Python is installed by default and the Raspberry Pi project pushes it
pretty hard. Students sitting in front of RPis are going to get taught
Python unless their teacher is someone like me who strongly dislikes
Python, and I suspect Gambas isn't going to be the next thing on their
list.
Third, you can't install or update Gambas on a platform on which it doesn't
compile and run, and if you're one of "the ones that don't have the
necessary skills or experience to install and update Gambas on these
platforms", I would hope you'll shell out the 50 bucks to send your pet
hardware platform to someone who volunteers to make it work

(snip)

Post by Rob Kudla
Isn't there a Raspbian support group or something that has people who know
how to read gcc error messages?
Rob

Carl S Nilsson
137 Gordons Hill Road
Lindisfarne, Tas.
Australia 7015